Tuesday, July 31, 2012

Say What Now?

Janice Daniels proclaims to stand for smaller government and fiscal conservatism.  Yet since taking office, she has advocated for "big brother" government oversight/regulation of the following:

-- your marriage and family
-- your social views -- which she'll fix with her marriage initiative.  Check out her explanation on her mayoral FB page.
-- your electrical meter
-- your right to speak at council with a full page of new rules and procedures that "simplify" matters.  I mean...unless you are one of her cronies.  They get to speak whenever they want for however long they wish whether or not they've signed up.

She has asked the city to spend an additional $35,000+ PER YEAR to keep the library open on a DIFFERENT day, not an EXTRA day.  That's because she was denied the opportunity to spend OVER A MILLION DOLLARS to get it open seven days a week as she promised.

She voted against a civic membership with the Michigan Municipal League "on principal," but when the majority of the council approved it, she was THE FIRST ONE to speak up for taking advantage of travel opportunities and conferences via MML ON THE CITY DIME.

That's right, she wants to spend OUR TAX DOLLARS for her personal networking benefit.

What Janice Daniels REALLY stands for is a government that SERVES HER OWN PURPOSES and spending of tax dollars THAT BENEFIT HER.

RECALL JANICE DANIELS.  We can't afford her,  we don't want her, and she's bad for Troy.

88 comments:

  1. That's a doozy of an explanation for her "Troy Marriage Iniative" over on her FB page. That it is going to, in her words, "divert tax dollars from addressing societal challenges to infrastructure improvements (roads, sidewalks, drains, etc) we will provide a better environment for the private sector to grow businesses and for families to move to Troy". It is such a transparent way of linking something she is doing to add to her "I'm good for Troy" argument. You could say the same thing about ANY other person's volunteer activities...PTO, parent booster clubs, Meals on Wheels, Big Brother/Big Sister program, Boys and Girls club, they're addressing societal needs and problems. But these volunteers don't usually envisage it in such lofty terms, and as a saintly act in preserving tax dollars for sidewalks so that businesses will come here, as our Mayor is framing it.

    She's nuts. I shudder to think what 3-ring circus is going on in her head, hatching plots and strategies. Does she really believe what she says, or does she think we will buy anything that she says as long as family values, business growth and saving tax dollars is thrown in there together, no matter if it makes no sense? She should just shut up already and pursue her volunteer acitivity quietly and not connect it up with the Mayor's office.

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  2. Sue Martin for Mayor!

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  3. Please, let's not forget her ringing endorsement of and involvement in the "meet your neighbor" campaign which is aimed at seeking Muslims and converting them to her looney brand of "Christianity".

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  4. What is absolutely frightening is how many people will buy into this flawed logic in the name of being a "Christian Conservative." Troy needs to sit up, take notice and take action. I pray for discernment and wisdom to take over. The appeal to protecting our wallets and saving money is nauseating. And anti-community.

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  5. I can't wait to hear how Dave Henderson stands by her on this one.

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    1. How about this... she's volunteering for a good cause. One that she admits has failed her in her lifetime. I read that on her page. I probably should, and likely will someday, just stop looking here. The hateful way you treat human beings is sad to read, and anonymously for the most part no less. At the very least sign your name to your rants. And before Sue goes off on my playful Schilldog comment again, that simply doesn't compare. I'd be just as o.k. with Dane Slater, Jim Campbell or Wade Fleming promoting wholesome lifestyles whatever that might be, as I am with the Mayor. I'm sure they are all advocates of good clean living as defined by their own internal morality check list, but they just don't live under the same scrutiny you have selected to place on Mayor Daniels. Do I agree fewer divorces will ultimately lead to more businesses coming here? Maybe in some remote way there's a link... That wouldn't be my reason to advocate for strong families here in Troy. It's hers, so be it...

      Hopefully that answers your concerns anonymous.

      Dave Henderson

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    2. Dear Councilman Henderson:

      "So be it" is unacceptable to me, as is Mayor Daniels' advocacy of something that "maybe in some remote way" could be described as connected to attracting more business to Troy. I am tired of a Mayor who cannot seem to understand what her public role is. I am tired of a Mayor who continues to use public office to promote personal ideologies, instead of real and meaningful public service. Public servants deserve our scrutiny and in fact, ask for it, by seeking election. The level of scrutiny Mayor Daniels recieves now is directly correlated to her actions and statements since the election. Mayor Daniels represents, and ought to serve, the entire Troy community, a fact she will never accept or even comprehend. So, I will not throw up my hands, shrug my shoulders and say, "so be it." I will vote to recall her and will support the recall effort as much as I am able.

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    3. Dave,
      I am not the Anon that called for your respsonse.

      But I have this to say, you fellow City Council Members need to rein her in, just like you did with the city staff opening mail issue. She has no idea apparently of the ludicrousness of her linking her Marriage Initiative program (even if it is a laudable activity) with saving tax dollars. You need to do this for her own good and the city's good. This stuff is picked up by the news media and makes our city look foolish. Of course, Janice Daniels can pursue her volunteer activities just don't make public statements about it helping Troy's infrastruture or diverting tax dollars. There is a clear-cut line between activities as a private citizen and as a public official and Mayor Daniels seems to be having trouble grasping it. A word in her ear from you guys might help.

      As far as people posting anonymously, this is a public forum, open for anyone to read, as a private citizen I reserve the right NOT to use my name. BTW I will be emailing you and other city council members, re this matter, and will be signing my name.

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    4. Dear Councilman Henderson:

      "So be it" is not acceptable to me. Nor is the fact that our Mayor promotes personal ideologies that "maybe in some remote way" could possibly be conntected to Troy's economic future. I, for one, am tired of a Mayor who does not understand what public service means and would rather promote herself and her pet projects than engage in real and meaningful public service. She invited our scrutiny when she ran for office. The level of scrutiny she now recieves is directly correlated to her own inappropriate words and actions. She must be recalled.

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    5. Dave,

      Truthfully, I'd be just as upset with Dane Slater, Jim Campbell, Wade Fleming, or any member of the Council for publicly endorsing this type of policy. The point is that no government official (that's what you all are now) should be pushing their religious agenda and / or interfering with how a religious institution handles marriage. It's funny how quickly "religious" people scream and yell because they think the government will tell churches that they'll have to perform same-sex marriages. (That will never happen, nor does the LGBT community even want that, because those institutions are free to handle their religious ceremonies without interference from the government.) Now a government offical publicly endorses a policy telling religious organizations that they need to make their traditions much more strict. Where's the outrage from the "religious" people that government is trying to tell them what to do? The hypocricy here is astonishing and that is why people like myself are upset by this new development. If she wants to do this as a private citizen, that fine, but she should not be endorsing this as a public official and claim it will save the city "hundreds of thousands of dollars" to be put towards our infrastructure. Not one of the 7 of you should be telling the citizens of this city how to "lead a wholesome life" or be a "strong family". That's up to the family, and the churches they DECIDE to attend, and the pastors they DECIDE to follow. It's no business of the Mayor or Council who I live with, who I marry, what religion I practice, or if I choose to get divorced. What is so hard to understand about this?

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    6. Dave,

      Look at the anonymous posts here as analogous to people giving teacher evaluations at the end of a course. Those are anonymous to assure no retribution. Teachers read them to improve their course. I assume you are reading here to find out what your constituents REALLY think, maybe it's blunt, uncouched by polite words, and seems "not nice" at times but I prefer honest truth, someone's got to point out when the emperor's not wearing any clothes, so to speak.
      If you really want to see mean, uncalled-for, insulting, stupid posts about the mayor, I suggest you go over to the Free Press, Oakand Press or Detroit News. This blog and associated comments have been remarkably civil by comparison.

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    7. Dave W. Let me remind you that the Mayor didn't begin her term pushing any religious issue whatsoever. She was dragged into this firestorm by this exact blog by a post she made on facebook months before even deciding to run for office. Someone was trolling for a nugget which they found and the Mayor was caught in an unfortunate firestorm of international proportion...

      Naturally the church is going to rally behind her as she navigates her way through a situation (which she brought on herself), in an arena that she, and I assume most of the countries population, has ever been faced with... yet she is expected to be able to handle the immense pressure of it all with the grace and dignity of a seasoned pro. I'm sorry, I have a bit more compassion for my fellow man than what this page exhibits... that is my single reason for sticking my face in this fan so often. I don't know Mayor Daniels except in the couple of council meetings before election that I spoke at (for less than my 5 minute allotment... it can be done) as we passed in the aisle. I got to know her through the campaign just as I had Neil, Jim, Doug, Ed and others. Has she handled it all the way you or I would have... no, we're all different.

      And anon 5:55... thats just silly... retribution. I'm not the toughest guy in just about any room I show up in. In fact my wife brought me to my knees with a karate kick years ago. I've had leaders of the recall post my personal information on facebook for all to see without the respect of an apology when I called him on it, nor the regard for my personal safety if some whacka noodle decided he wanted to do something horrible. We all have our fears, what I hate is the gall someone has to spew words on a blog anonymously that they wouldnt in a million years say to someones face. Put your name on your posts... you'd soon find out how much more civil this place would become. It's a scary world out there, even more so when you talk with hostility toward someone. Thats why you don't do it. Be critical of policy and make the politicians accountable for their votes. Keep the mean spirited diatribe out.

      Dave

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    8. Hi again, Dave. You first point is not really true. On blogspot radio she said she would push this Marriage initiative in mid-November, before the outing of her Q comment (yes, I posted it, no I didn't find it and of course I didn't know the firestorm it would cause-if you did, you must know how bad it was).
      Even though she said she would run this initiative with her friend Michael Ross, the two of them have played a game at council meetings, where he has shown up to "introduce" her to the idea and "invite" her to meetings (which she now says she co-hosted).
      So she was intending to teach us heathen Troy folk how to live properly from the get-go.
      Just sayin'.

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    9. BTW, I'm sorry if someone posted personal information about you. I remember someone who used to do that on this blog,(your enemy, I believe, and I banned him.

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  6. Dave, I could write a book.
    But I will simply ask this. If you were Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or any of the other dozen religions (or if you were among the thousands of gay people who live and shop here) ALSO represented in Troy and you saw how the mayor supports events that exclude you, or even events designed to convert you to the mayor's religion, how would you feel?
    It's inappropriate behavior for the mayor of the second most diverse city in the state. It is her personal mission, granted. But it is SHE who promotes, publicizes and splashes the information all over council meetings and the Web and IS using her office to promote "healthy lifestyles." Her view of healthy lifestyles is her religious interpretation, so she should zip it.
    Maybe you should have a chat with her instead of us?

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    1. Sharon, with all due respect. I don't give a rip about the opinions a government official, Church leader, neighbor, family member, friend or political foe has about my lifestyle (even though it is basically milk toast). I don't care if anyone agrees with my lifestyle, or thinks I should live a different way. I don't care if someone wants to marry a mushroom. I own a set of moral guidelines as we all are entitled to do, and I feel sorry for those that allow an individual to make them feel inadequate or abused in some way.

      I also completely support Mayor Daniels right to her opinions and assertions whether she is at Krogers or City Hall, just exactly the same way I support your blog site and the commentary here. Do I agree with everything she says, absolutely not... do I agree with everything you and your fan base here say? Absolutely not. Do you have every right to express it... yes you do. I would not recommend she zip it any more than I would recommend that you do (even though sometimes i truly wish... :0))

      This is a big world with big people with big thoughts. Thankfully we all live in a place that we are allowed to express all of them freely. The door swings both ways, you simply don't like the way her door swings, thats o.k. Does that make her a bad person, no it does not... it makes her a different person.

      Not meaning to whip a dead horse but I've used this quote I stole from a speaker at a council meeting a few months ago. If we all thought the same, we would only need one of us. Keep the faith... the big kids will survive the trauma you think they've endured in the last 9 months, just as much as Mayor Daniels has survived the discourse from your camp. It simply would be nice to simmer down the soup a little bit, it's getting tiring, and nothing she has said in her ambitious campaign to help a church with a marriage seminar has harmed anyone... if so, give them my number and maybe I can console them.

      This may seem unbecoming a council person, but I am seriously tired of the nit picking. You're free to do as you please, I think it looks a bit silly already. I compare it to the attempt to blame the long grass on the soccer fields on the budget last year rather than the 100 year rains we had in the spring. My dad always told me while raising my kids... pick your battles Dave.

      Dave

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    2. Dave, I like how you turn the blame on the people who are insulted rather than the people -- like Janice, David Wisz, Gary Glenn and Gordon Scheppke -- who do the insulting!
      Why is all of your empathy for them? (I would love an answer)
      I guess you prove why I am needed.
      You see the victimizers as the victims. Why?
      The point isn't that people are HURT, the point is that people should not hurt others?
      Didn't you ever learn that in church?

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    3. Dave,

      I'm glad you don't care what a government official or anyone else thinks about how you lead your life. That's great. What will you do when people start discussing issues or passing laws that directly affect you? Perhaps a driving ordinance? It appears that you don't believe the government should regulate how people drive to improve public safety, but you are defending government interfering in church affairs. Mayor Daniels is part of the government and she is promoting this to "better the city". So legislating driving is bad, but regulating marriage/divorce is good? Seems a bit reversed to me.

      And if you truly don't care who gets married, I applaud you for it. If you happened to vote in 2004 against same-sex marriage, however, then I'd call you (with all due respect) a lying hypocrite. If you did vote for the ban, then I'd also say you advocate for the government enforcing your own religious views on the citizens. So much for small government.

      You also don't need to "feel sorry for those" of us "that allow an individual to make them feel inadequate or abused in some way." The problem is that those individuals seem to be constantly pushing their judgement on us and working towards actually "legislating morality" as they see it. I support Janice Daniels' right to believe and support whatever she wants, however misguided it may be. I will fight tooth & nail, however, against MAYOR Daniels' attempting to "improve" how religious organizations approach marriage, while saying she is reclaiming "hundreds of thousands of dollars for Troy's infrastructure." How can this be acceptable?

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    4. Sharon, I'm not turning blame on anyone. I'm doing exactly the opposite. You can't stand the Mayor, and her belief system. I get that. You'd love to silence that, I get that too... it's happening all over the country. Anyone that believes marriage is between a man and woman, or that women should have the right to kill babies are evil, or that guns cannot be owned (pick a conservative topic) and should just shut the heck up and move on (in fact I'm pretty sure you told me once to simply move out of Troy).

      Some believe the opposite. They are as vocal as the people that feel it is ok to abort a fetus or have same sex marriages. Before you trample all over me about being a gay hater, please know I've attended gay weddings, and have several gay friends. It is entirely their decision to live the way they feel is morally correct. I chose heterosexual coupling. It doesn't make either lifestyle choice fodder for ridicule. Some people are far more vocal about their beliefs, I believe whatever God you serve will serve justice when we leave this petty world behind for whatever choices he allowed you to make in your life. Heck I believe the earth is about 9,000 years old... some believe its millions of years old. Lets argue about that for thousands of years as if it really makes a difference.I figure I'll find out in less than about 20 years if all goes right... or maybe I won't.

      cont'd

      Dave

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    5. Part 2

      It's not my place to pass judgement on Mayor Daniels and its not my place to pass judgement on those who have chosen to verbally abuse her for a simple set of morals and beliefs. If you're gay be gay despite Mayor Daniels, if you're hetero, be hetero... it's a big world. All I say is pull yourself up by the bootstraps, get over having your feelings hurt because someone said something that you feel hurt your feelings, and have a better day. You can refer back a few months to my bullying blog for personal insight into being a victim. I know, I've been there. It hurts, but you can overcome. One funny twist in my life was when one of my bullies from middle school showed up one day to clean my carpets at my house a few years back. Life is really funny sometimes.

      I do not subscribe to name calling as you and I have sparred over this in the past. Yes even you have resorted to calling me names and I don't know if you realize it or not... I have never ever done that to you. In fact, that I can hold a somewhat civil conversation with you today, is a testament for my empathy toward those that choose to do to me exactly what you are accusing Mayor Daniels of doing to others. Two wrongs do not make a right. Tolerance of others is the way to go. I have not seen evidence of intolerance in any of the names you mentioned above... I don't think the Mayor has ever tried or would be able to pass any legislation banning gay people from Troy. Her only message has been one of personal morality. There is nothing wrong with that. It's her morality, if you don't like it ignore it and practice your own brand of morality... that was my main point above. Her comment about the lifestyle being dangerous... I don't know the data or real facts, I do know that aids came our way in the 80's and it was far more predominant in the gay community at first. No one is immune from it, and i think promiscuity in general is a bad practice for safety and morality sake... Thats also biblical, recall me because that belief is going to ruffle someones tail feathers and bring shame to Troy if it gets out. After all, I shouldn't have an opinion since I'm on council. Poppycock.

      Mr. Shepkes situation was completely ridiculous and you know it was politically fired up, and I don't even know Mr. Wisz or Gary Glenn nor have I stuck up for them or chastised them. If you haven't realized it yet, I don't really care what the politically correct thing to say or do in all of this is, I do know ridiculous behavior when I see it, and I have personally reached out to individuals privately to discuss things when I see over the top situations. I will never make public those conversations. This forum however often requires a little nugget of equality now and then. I'm ready willing and able to provide fuel for your fire.

      Dave

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    6. Yes, I have been tough. But as I'm sure you know my story, I was dragged into this process by a man who merrily admitted he lied about a major issue and said "that's the way the game is played."
      That angered me, as his winning the game with lies hurt my kids' hometown.
      I too was horrifically bullied in school. Not so important.
      However, when you and others excuse Chinese slurs used at city council meetings (my girls are Chinese, but the way), and Wisz calling the transportation center "Heroin Express" and "Mugger Mover" because they came out of Detroit, it makes my head reel.
      Please don't excuse these things as "not PC" when they are blatantly racist, but fine.
      The key thing you DO NOT UNDERSTAND is that Janice is part of the government you folks hate and mistrust. Someone said it beautifully that you care when it's a few bucks in taxes or traffic regulations -- then it's a big deal and all about rights and the constitution.
      But when a person in power, in government, comes down AGAINST PEOPLE in her community, that's a problem.
      When she invites the international community out to an event which the organizers INTENTIONALLY DECEIVE invitees by not telling them the purpose is to DISRESPECT their religion by trying to convert them...
      THAT, Dave, is what abuse of power looks like.
      The lying and cheating and hypocricy of an elected government official -- that is what is scary to those who agree with me.
      Others put all their value in tax pennies.
      I put my value in people.
      At least that is how I define the difference between you and me.

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    7. Dave W... what will I do when government starts passing laws and implementing tax increases that directly affect me? I think you're looking at it. You run for office and make a change.

      At one point or another you have to decide that it's time to stop complaining and fix it. Thats exactly what I did and will continue to do for a few more years. It's not a fun job, and It takes away from every aspect of your life even when you're not under extreme fire. I'm not complaining, I signed up, I ran and the people liked what they thought I stood for, and I haven't and won't waver from that. All the other noise is just that, noise.

      As I stated below, not everyone is going to like my brand, but it's the brand I own, it's the brand that won an election, and I have a responsibility to myself and the people of Troy that have trusted me with their government to keep the brand integrity.

      And FYI, that vote wasn't for banning gay marriage, it was for maintaining the integrity of traditional marriage. With all due respect, the gay community should rally behind finding another nomenclature, I really believe they'd have better success fighting a midwestern religious conservative mindset. Another FYI... that bit of law failed by a large margin in Michigan as I recall. You might be surprised when 79% of the registered voters in a fairly conservative city come out to vote on a recall issue as they vote out Mr. Obama. The gay marriage issue was strategically placed on a presidential election for the exact same reason, and look at the results. Demonizing Mayor Daniels primarily on her social views may not have been as genious as the recall people think it was. Time will tell, and this is certainly more civics education than I thought I'd ever experience.

      Dave

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    8. Tough is one thing, disrespectful is another, and I've never done that to you, but you on the other hand have in fact been that way with me. Free speech is a really touchy thing, all for one and one for all. As for Chi Com... I get your sensitivity there, but he was in fact referring to the Chinese Communist Government in his topic of the evening. That is a very common term, and in my world no way was it meant to demean an entire race of people... We both know that, you let it scratch a nerve... at least he didn't call you stupid and demand you move out of Troy, and I never picketed your house over that. :0)

      FYI, about 15 years ago on a blog site for watches on a public forum (fairly new concept at the time) I referred to something and I can't remember exactly what it was, as oriental. I received such a smack down at the time by an individual because it was a derogatory term (he was asian). Heck my Athens High School teachers taught that term to me, how was I supposed to know. PC is often a moving target, and it's tough to stay current. It would be great if we were all chocolate or vanilla, but we aren't. What we all can do is understand when someone might not have the elite world experiences that you and I have, and blow it off if someone goofs. It's just kind of polite, and is certainly better than dragging an individual through the mud over it and attempting to ruin his or her reputation. Gordon for state rep... he's a pretty nice guy when you strip the politics away... aren't we all.

      Dave

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    9. It's not her private social views we disdain, it's her CITY OF TROY OFFICIAL social, religious, ideological policies we abhor.
      Just to be clear.
      Have all the bloody bigoted, reckless, narrow-minded opinions you want, just stop shoving them down our throats IN PUBLIC, ON THE RADIO, AT CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS AND IN SPEECHES!
      I'm trying to be patient with you Dave, but sheesh, stop pretending we're listening through her keyhole. She keeps saying this crap on the radio and TV.

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    10. Darn it, you made me turn my computer back on.
      I found out later that the ChiCom term, which is widely considered a racist term by Asians, not by me, is common parlance of Rush Limbaugh, so then I knew where it came from. Even after the bloody Chair of the Michigan Asian Pacific American Affairs Commission came to a council meeting to protest his use of that word, and explain it's historic significance, he said it again, that night in front of her. He deferred to Rush in her face.
      Sure, he's a swell guy. Very respectful.
      You will never understand, but I will try to explain it to you once again. The slur doesn't make me feel hurt and sad for my innocent daughters, it makes me feel angry that HE is so thoughtless and disrespectful to say it in the first place and then repeat it after it was explained.
      By the way, the first time he said it, in the same breath he said something like, "We don't need a train from Detroit to Troy, those people can't afford to shop at the Somerset Collection."
      Who do you think he was talking about?
      It's nice that you are loyal to your friends, but I'm thinking blind loyalty makes some people just as dangerous and the people they repeatedly excuse for ill behavior.

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    11. And by the way, all of the most successful kids in our schools are Chinese. Why the F do you nag me about picking on these people and NOT chastise them for picking on innocents.
      Using Asian slurs in Troy is stupid and hurtful.
      Using them at council meetings is nuts.
      Making a person who would do that a member of the Planning Commission is outrageous. You defend the most undeserving people, I can't help but question your mind.

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    12. Sharon, "all of the most successful" ? I'm not going to dust off any of the words you like to use so freely, but you do realize what that statement is don't you? You are so focused on hating everyone that helped defeat that millage hike two years plus ago, you can't see that you actually act and treat people as bad or worse than how you judge their free speech. You talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. I'm over this one, there's plenty of fuel for a few blogs to come, enjoy... good night. By the way...still waiting for your apology, of course I'm not as successful as all the smart kids in our schools, so I suppose I deserved having you call me stupid. Funny as that is, you haven't been posting any of the conversations that reference that you did that to me. Own it, I own all my words. Let your fans really get to know who you are. I did, and it won an election... it's liberating.

      Dave

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    13. Dave,

      I'm guessing those "gay weddings" you went to were out-of-state? Or were they not weddings, just "commitment ceremonies"? Did those couples get the same rights you and your wife enjoy? If they did get those rights in another state, why shouldn't those of us in MI enjoy the same rights? Do your gay friends (and the Mayor's) simply tolerate that you don't believe they should have the same rights?

      You may not be a "gay hater", but you definitely see us as unequal to you. You want us to "rally around another nomenclature", as long as we don't call our commitments "marriage"? Even if we did, you realize the 2004 BAN would not grant us the same rights, don't you? Even with "civil unions" (where legal) we are denied 1000+ federal rights of "marriage". Here are the words from the ballot: "the union of one man and one woman in marriage shall be the only agreement recognized as a marriage or similar union for any purpose." This didn't fail by a large majority as you stated, it passed by 59% to 41%.
      The fact that you think the 2004 vote was not to ban same-sex marriage, but rather to "maintain the integrity of traditional marriage" speaks volumes. IT'S THE SAME THING, SAME RESULT, AND SAME PURPOSE. (If people really wanted to "maintain the integrity of traditional marriage", then they should outlaw divorce. Personally, I think that is just as inappropriate having the state dictate the terms of your marriage and if it can end.)

      I respect that you may not "hate" us, but don't pretend that you support us. I may not be running for local office, but I am doing my part to fight ignorance and fear in the community. Speaking out against bigotry and hatred (I'm not referencing yourself, rather multiple other people in the community) and correcting harmful stereotypes. I am also giving my support to the many legal avenues that are underway to have MI and every other state's marriage bans removed as unconstitutional. We have been winning the majority of the cases in the Federal courts and I'm confident the SCOTUS will end this "separate but equal" debate. You and I may both have big ideas on this issue, but understand that I can't marry the person I love with all my heart because you feel it's against your religion. If you can't see what's wrong with that, then I pray God forgives you.

      The main point of my other posts, which you side-stepped, was that it was inappropriate of the Mayor to use her position to push a religious agenda and claim fiscal gains for the city. I'm stunned that you defend it. You may feel it's not your place to disagree publicly with the Mayor, but it's the fundamental concept that you should disagree with. It's a simple question for a conservative, should government dictate to religious organizations how they should conduct their business? I would think the answer is "no".

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    14. 59-41% is a landslide in a presidential election. I have never used the word hate toward anyone. I tolerate some people because I have to, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with race, gender, marital status or sexual choice... and yes we can argue til the cows come home over choice or genetics, just as we can about the age of the earth, global warming, the existence of God or when a fetus becomes a human being.

      I feel you have every right to champion your cause, just as the Mayor has her right to champion hers. My perceived lack of support is a personal matter between me and my God. I won't stand in judgement on either side of this issue. I have my own personal matters to attend to, we all have to reach the finish line the best we can, and affect those we love in the most positive way we can. No offense, I just can't carry the burden of everyones social issues, and I won't. Thats why I don't have higher political aspirations. This is simply a budget/quality of life political run. Get in, get out and let someone else steer the ship. If all politicians did that, I think the world would be a better place.

      And you are correct, it is not my place to disagree with the Mayor or others on council on a blog. It is my right since I inherited the same civil liberties as you did when we were born in the US to support someone who has the same civil liberties as you do. Do I agree with everything? No, I don't agree with everything from other council members, but I don't criticize them in public or on my own blog, and i promise you this, if another person on council were taking on as much fire power as the Mayor, I'd be right here by their side unless there was a criminal reason not to do so. I see none of that here.

      I am sorry to see anyone get their feelings hurt over any of this... but I give them all the same advice as I would my own child... suck it up, hold your head high, and get back in there, you are better than this. Ask my son and daughter if that was good advice... they are both succesful adults raising great families. I'm sure it was mostly their moms influence.

      Again, I agree with confronting government and keeping them in check, I was very vocal over the last two years... not one of the typical posters here were willing to hold the previous council to such high standards. They never looked in the weeds for what was hidden. They trusted everything and everyone on council and at city hall. I've joked about this before, where did all those liberal hippies go from the 60's, they didn't trust anyone in government... now they trust everyone (except me), am I the new hippie movement?

      I recommend staying focused on the weeds, and making sure your government is staying small and not growing out of control as it has been for a decade now. We don't earn enough money to sustain that sort of growth. Government can absolutely overtax their way into an inability to collect taxes from the people. We are on that path if we don't correct it. My responsibility is budgetary, if others choose to take on more load through marriage seminars or defending heterosexual marriage or (insert favorite con/lib argument here) I applaude and support them. Will I always agree? No.

      National and state social issues are the least important thing to me and my council responsibilities... obviously they are not to everyone.

      This is my last post here on this thread... I only really inserted myself because anon above made a snide comment about me defending the Mayor. Hopefully this exhaustive exchange has helped clear up my actions or lack thereof.

      Dave

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    15. "This is my last post here on this thread..."

      Thank you God.

      By the way, glad your kids are great. There are many happy, successful gay and lesbian adults raising great families too. Let's hope your grandchildren don't "decide" to be gay.
      I am sure your great parenting advice to "suck it up, get in there and hold your head up high" will hold them in good stead against the barrage of discrimination and persecution your views will force them to face.

      And you are again incredibly disingenuous when you say you don't stand in judgement. Your words speak volumes.
      It appears that we all have to "tolerate some people because we have to."

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    16. Sigmund... there is no shortage of successful gay people that no doubt had hurdles to overcome in their "decision" to be gay... again, the quotation marks are because there is scientific as well as philosophical evidence that being gay is either genetic or a choice. You simply don't want to allow the other side to have an opinion about it. You are staunch in your belief it is genetic I assume by your post. I at least allow both sides the benefit of doubt regardless of my personal opinion. As stated above, We'll all know for sure when we get to our final destination. Sorry, this is my last post here :0)

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    17. I appreciate that Mr. Henderson reads this and voices his opinion; in many areas I agree with him, in others I don't. I'm not interested in engaging him or anyone else in a debate on gay marriage, religion or any other issue. I'm a conservative Christian and know what I believe, I respect the rights of others to hold totally different beliefs. Mr. Henderson is absolutely correct about one thing I think we can all agree on; one day I'll either know I made the right decision or I won't know anything. My advice to all, chose wisely.
      Now for a point of disagreement; Mr. Henderson, there was nothing "hidden in the weeds". Mr. Szerlag and Mr. Nelson before him correctly identified what was happening. A painful, but as reasonable as possible, course of action was undertaken with the previous Council's approval. Where are the weeds? The now Mayor spoke week in and week out, out of both sides of her mouth. She was wrong then and takes credit now for what others did. Who mapped out the course to reduce spending? John Szerlag and his staff did. I've given my children the same advice you gave yours and I agree with you 100% on this advice; suck it and keep going. I also I told them something else,when you see something that's wrong don't complain if you're not willing to fix it. That's what the recalls about; we're not just complaining, we're fixing it.
      A conservative, Christian Republican (a real one)

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    18. Anon 2:05, I appreciate your post in that you agree it is o.k. to disagree. Not one person on this blog corners the market on right or wrong or truth. I always get baited by posts like the one that started this one for me... "how will Dave back the Mayor on this one". I feel compelled to explain my thought process, love it or hate it, I stick my neck out for the chopping. Thanks for appreciating it.

      As for the weeds, I'm not directly condemning John Szerlag on the weeds comment. I think that little blip on the Florida radar screen was a very real commentary on government projects in general. Troy isn't the only one that suffers from it, it is universal, local, state, and fed. Thats why I frequently compare public to private sector actions on budgets and finance. The private sector has a CEO looking out for the bottom line for stock holders, and a line up of managers that have to carry out increasing sales or chopping costs to meet bottom line requirements. Public sector doesn't have that same set up, so a council that is both sceptical and willing to delve into the books a bit is required to protect you and I from things hidden in the weeds. We are the stock holders, thats why there are elections, so we can throw out the foxes that are watching the chicken coop.

      Dave

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    19. Oops two other points... John and council would not have embarked on the last round of deep cuts had we voted for the 1.9 mil increase. I have stated all along, I would have backed a tax increase had someone been able to without a doubt prove we needed one, and exactly how much. I also applaude the hard work the city did on the cutting, but again, the people forced that by voting no.

      And lastly, I also include that advice, and lead by example. I was tired of whining, and ran for council. I'm learning every day, there are things we as citizens absolutely don't know or understand about running government (me included, Sue don't have a heart attack)... but without a willingness to jump in and find out and do what you can to fix it, we will have a constant stream of career politicians willing to rubber stamp the process without asking hard questions. That is unacceptable, and by the end of my four years I hope others will get involved for one term and represent you and I for all the right reasons.

      Dave

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    20. Dave H,

      In reference to your comment: "there is no shortage of successful gay people that no doubt had hurdles to overcome in their 'decision' to be gay... again, the quotation marks are because there is scientific as well as philosophical evidence that being gay is either genetic or a choice. You simply don't want to allow the other side to have an opinion about it."

      That's because there are not two opinions, there are not two valid sides. Just because people are afraid of, can't relate to, and have been taught that gay people are abominations, doesn't mean they have a valid opinion, only an opinion. Plenty of people have an opinion on interracial marriage. Do those opposed have a valid opinion on the issue? No, they have an opinion that many would call bigoted and would not consider a valid argument.

      I don't believe that being gay is genetic, nor is it a choice. I believe it is biological (that's different from genetic). I believe there is a mixture of brain composition, hormones, and possibly other biological distinctions. Studies show more and more that this is the case. Such as a study done in 2008: (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html) They've found, as well as studies done in 1991, that there are distinct diffences between "gay" and "straight" brains.

      Those who are gay don't choose or decide to be, they just are. Just as you don't choose to be straight, you just are. If you truly believe the choice argument is valid, then you must have personal experience and I can only assume you're bisexual, as well as every other person who believes they can choose between a man and a woman. For bisexuals, it really is a choice, but the attraction to both is genuine. That's the only way you can "choose" between being "gay" or "straight", because you are attracted to both and end up with one or the other. For the rest of us though, we know if we always liked girls or boys, and we never had to choose between them. If you made the choice to marry your wife instead of a man, then you're a bisexual and should be proud of your choice. If you are straight, then you always liked girls. I have always liked boys.

      And yes, we'll all know for sure when we leave this earth, and again I hope God forgives you and others like you who want to continue pushing this idea of "choice".

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    21. Oh, an in terms of marriage, this is what the "protectors" of "traditional marriage" sound like. It shows what will happen when they meet St. Peter at the pearly gates :)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bCu2eGCjz4

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    22. Davew, on that point we'll have to disagree. The funny thing in this one is that you, without realizing it are showing the exact same intolerance for others opinions as you throw on the mayor. The tolerance of ideas and opinion door swings both ways. You don't corner the market as I've stated before on absolute truth... You have opinions, and I respect that. All I ask is you respect others rights to do the same, have an opinion, faith or science based.

      Dave

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    23. Dave H,

      My point is/has been that you can have whatever opinion you want, but don't expect those of us who are negatively affected by those opinions to sit silently and accept it. I can & do respect your right and the Mayor's to hold an opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't vocally disagree with you. If people feel the state should deny interracial marriage, they have the right to that opinion. If people feel muslims are dangerous, they have the right to that opinion. If people feel the white race is superior to another race because of the color of their skin, they have the right to their opinion. If people feel that they should boycott military funerals because God demands it, they have a right to their opinion. You're correct that I don't "corner the market" on "absolute truth", but I know that those opinions I listed above are harmful and that people should speak out if they disagree with them.

      Technically, I am intolerant of intolerance; I realize that and I'm perfectly fine with that. If people want to call me intolerant for not allowing people to push lies and misinformation against me or others, so be it. I am not out sabbotaging people's marriages, I am not molesting children, I do not sleep with 100's of people a year, I do not have HIV or AIDS, and I am not trying to take away the legal rights of religious people. I'm intolerant of people who want to (or support) the denial of my legal rights because of their religious beliefs and I will not apologize for that. That's the diffence in the side debate we've had, that you appear to support the legalization of discrimination instead of merely holding an opinion, and I've taken issue with it.

      My original comments were in reference to the Mayor using her position to promote changes to religious institutions and their marriage practices to save "hundreds of thousands of dollars" for the city of Troy. Your first response to me was that the Mayor was dragged into the religious controversy because of the Facebook comment and this blog, which had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Your subsequent statements then prompted the reponses I posted and led us to this side discussion. We will agree to disagree that people "choose" their sexual orientation, and people can form their own opinions based on our dialogue, but the fact that you couldn't address the basic issue of government influencing church affairs speaks for itself.

      I'll also state this again, that if the Mayor was supporting this "marriage initiative" as a private citizen, that's one thing, but she is publicizing it as part of her office. Similar to the library question, where is the money going to come from? Where are the "hundreds of thousands of dollars" that the city will be able to redirect to infrastructure? So I have two big problems with this action by the Mayor: 1) She is publicly endorsing, as a government official, altering religious requirements for marriage. 2) She is pushing fiscal misinformation and claiming this will provide $$$,$$$'s, because it's her opinion that it will and has absolutely no supportive data. It's my opinion that she is in the wrong here, but that is my opinion and we're free to disagree.

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  7. Very well said. She was not elected Mayor for her religious beliefs. She is suppose to represent the community of Troy and it's diversity. I have not seen one indication of this since she has taken office. She has only alienated many of the residents in Troy and made her name and the city a national spectacle.

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  8. CM Henderson- You really have to stop defending this very poor performing Mayor because people are noticing. I don't know your relationship with her, but you give the impression that she runs you. My church decides who it will marry and who it won't. We don't need Janice in the mix. Also, her "good cause" as you would call it is a hate group in disguise. I find it strange that a woman wants other women to stay in potentially dangerous marriages because of her "Christian" beliefs. Yes, she has the right to belong to any wacko crazy group she wants - but I don't believe she should be doing it under the banner of Mayor of Troy. She is not an positive ambassador for our city. I would also ask her to defend her position now that she has made it a public matter as our Mayor - please identify the analysis that shows that Troy has a divorce problem, please show the analysis that proves that children of divorce in Troy cause more "societal consquences" than children from "intact" families, show the study that proves thousands of dollars will be saved and that same money will be/can be diverted to drains. Where are the facts? I know she says on her FB page that it's "her thought" that there is a problem but her gang is very touchy about people using feelings and thought to make statements. They want facts. Where are they? And drains, really . . I seem to remember her followers saying they didn't want to pay for drains and sewers because they can't be found in the Constitution. I wish she would take her drama elsewhere or keep it to herself. This long time married person and my spouse, who attend Church, can't wait to vote this nitwit out of office. You too Dave, tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you enable this poor performer who continually uses bad judgement.

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    1. Please read my post above if you have the time. I get long winded, but short winded gets you in trouble. The sad part about your desire to vote me out of office will be the fact that I never intended to run for council this time, I am a one term server, so unless you want to rally the troops for another recall, you are going to be supremely disappointed in 2015. Until then I plan on defending peoples rights to express themselves, and to govern on council using logic and good sense for another 3 1/4 years.

      I've said it before... if you govern because you are concerned about winning your next election, you cannot govern from your heart. I'll never please everyone during this 4 years. For every demand that I vote a cetain way, there are an equal amount of votes demanding I vote the other way. When you run in 2015, I hope you reveal your true identity... it's tough to win if people don't know your name. And when you win your spot on council, you can try to please 80,000 plus residents equally. Best of luck with that :0)

      Dave

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  9. Dave - whether it's harmless or not, her job is not to get people to marriage counselors. If she does that on her own time, as Janice private citizen, fine. But she is doing it as Mayor and that is not her job. What is she doing to learn how to run a meeting, understand our budget, fill commercial vacancies, patch up the rift she started with the Chamber, make amends to the Gays who not only pay property taxes here but shop in our stores (I bet the owners of Somerset can't wait until she is gone!), etc. She has done nothing as Mayor that she should be doing. It was nice when Stine and Shilling were Mayor, pretty boring civic matters were attended to and we all didn't have to pay much attention. I can't tell you how many people have told me they have started watching counsel meetings and are mortified at the incompetency of our Mayor. We need exceptional, focused individuals in this position. Not someone who describes the position as "fascinating" like she is looking at a shiny object.

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  10. Dave,
    With all due respect, I don't think you are getting the point about Mayor Daniels. You say "Has she handled it all the way you or I would have...no, we're all different" and that you have had private words with individuals when they were going "over the top". The point is there have been too many instances where she has handled things in ways that MOST people would not, and much of what she says is "over the top", from her speech before the transit center vote to her latest claim about bringing business to Troy and diverting tax dollars via her marriage initative involvement, and her radio interviews. I also heard about her wanting a requirement for the next city manager to know the US Constitution...bizarre, not the first thing that would come to mind for that post. BTW, none of these instances were instigated by the recall people, they were actions of her own free will. You say you have compassion for her, do you have compassion for the citizens who wonder what the eccentric mayor will do next? Irrespective of her personal beliefs, I think the citizens of Troy have seen her unsuitablity for office and will vote accordingly in November. I also wondered whether the Troy Chamber of Commerce is pushing Birmingham as part of the transit center name partly because of Troy's bad press via the Mayor...just a thought. And if you are right about the recall failing and I am wrong, then it will be time for me to start looking for a new home.

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  11. Very glad to hear you are a one timer Dave. And after Janice is gone, you can get back to city business and not have to spend all your time defending her. I have no intention of running for anything. I am smart enough to know that in a non-partisan position you have to keep your opinions to yourself. You have to keep it all about the city. I know I could not do that, so why would I run for such a position? I wish Janice had that kind of introspection or at least respect for the population here to not use the office as a stepping stone. There is real work to be done and she is neglecting it. And I won't use my real name here. I know how she went after those children who spoke at council and how she called to harass signature gatherers. She is a very vindictive person. I would prefer to keep my family out of her way.

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  12. Dave, seriously...SERIOUSLY...how can you continue to defend her? Have you no common sense, pride or respect for the 80,000+ residents of this city? Take a few steps back, consider the realities, and try to tell me how it makes sense to defend even ONE of her grievous misdeeds or supposed initiatives from her office as mayor.

    It's NOT the same as anything we've seen from any previous mayor, no matter how you spin it.

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  13. Sue, can we add some levity for a bit?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZHJ2iHQz_0

    SERIOUSLY (its funny).

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  14. Wary and Weary in TroyAugust 2, 2012 at 11:25 AM

    CM Henderson...Dave, you are very cagey. You obviously LOVE this banter or you wouldn't engage. What is so insidious about your comments is that you are trying to come off as so cool. "Hey, people can do what they want, so what if I'm not PC..." Boy oh boy. You know exactly what you are saying and just couch it so you seem so put upon.
    I mean you throw out that "should people be silenced because 'women should have the right to kill babies'." That is not inflammatory, right? Or that you are so tolerant of gay people you have friends that are gay and attended their weddings(?), but you state that "It is essentially their decision to live that way" and that it is their "lifestyle choice." That is insulting and not true. Did you CHOOSE to be straight? Is being straight a lifestyle choice? No, and neither is being gay according to every SCHOLARLY source. This "tolerance" you profess is followed by the statement that "God will serve justice." Translation, don't worry gays will be punished folks.
    Then you seem to have some gleeful "Back to the Future" memory with a former middle school bully who is cleaning your carpets. Wow. Does the fact that the person was employed and providing a service in your home lower them in your eyes? Do you look down your nose at that type of labor? Were they demeaned somehow? If you went into a an investment company and the guy was a broker would you have felt as vindicated as you seemed to be with the carpet cleaner?

    And how dare you blame the teachers at Athens for your inability to understand words and meanings in the context of today. The same way that you want to defend Mr.Schepke. Sorry, but you are middle aged. Chi-con has been a slur for decades. You know that words and meaning change with time and that trying to act like you just can't keep up with being PC is a cop-out and disingenuous.
    I don't care what you personally believe in. If your "logic and good sense" allow you to think the world started 9,000 years ago, well ok. But DO NOT bring that personal view into the government or the schools. Period. It has NO place there. The mayor has NO business bringing her PERSONAL beliefs to the city government. NONE. It is that you refuse to grasp that idea or don't give a hoot is what has people so hot here and unhappy with your postings.

    So, thank you for 1 term of service. It is unfortunate that you are so misunderstood or feel so passionate about defending peoples right to express themselves, and yet are so displeased when people express themselves on a blog. I surmise from that you only want to defend the expressions that fit with your view. And what are "elite world experiences" that you speak of? You like to think that you have never said anything disrespectful to the blog admin here, but that is more passive-aggressive speak. Your comments are disrespectful of and to many. And that is your 1st amendment right and posters everywhere, isn't it?

    By the way, we don't want you to 'govern from the heart." We want knowledgable, intelligent, studied, informed and unbiased governance from the brain. Logic and good sense are relative. I don't agree with your logic on topics you have expressed on this blog, therefore your good sense is debatable to me. So, I hope for the next 3.5 years you will start doing your homework, researching, getting unbiased expert input and a broader, much broader view of the entire community's wishes. You represent ALL of us, not just those that agree with you and your world view.

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    1. FYI, its Chi Com with an m not an n and it is literally an abbreviation of two words Chinese and Communist. It is used in reference mainly and absolutely as Mr Schepke used it, as a reference to our governments indebtedness to the communist government of China. Lots of points here, but first and foremost, I'm not sure I've ever been called cagey... I'll add it to the list :0)

      Most importantly you missed the bigger point in all this. There are people on both sides of each and every political and moral issue, and points on the spectrum in between. I am not so arrogant to think that what I believe as truth is really truth. It's what I believe, and I have reasons why I believe a certain way. I purposely used the topics such as baby killing and nurture vs nature for a distinct reason, and you call me cagey. Do I believe a baby is a human at conception? Some don't consider life until three months in the womb... and points in between. Do I believe homosexuality is nature, or is it surroundings and upbringing? Science and faith will never agree on many things. My caginess as you call it is just one guy ready willing and able to give the benefit of doubt to both sides of every argument. As my dad used to say when we didn't understand something and he couldn't get it through our thick little skulls... "you'll be happy in heaven". I never truly understood what he meant by that until a few years ago. No one has cornered the market on truth, the questions we all have about any topic will probably really surprise us when we finally get to the place where myteries are revealed in the after life. That is if in fact you believe in that. As for the carpet cleaner... I didn't look down my nose, I just got a kick out of a guy sweating in my home while I watched 20 years after he beat the heck out of me at will during my walks to school in the 8th grade. Sheesh.

      Dave

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    2. There is so much to address in every one of your posts, Dave. But I'm going to let the majority of it speak for itself.

      The one thing that MUST be highlighted, though, is the ridiculous notion you have that you give both sides of an argument the benefit of the doubt.

      You must mean your side and Daniels's side. Because those are the only two points of view you ever consider.

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    3. Sue, when have you seen other than your side of an issue? Enlighten us. Everything I've ever seen you post clearly falls only on one side of an issue. So its inappropriate to point fingers if you yourself are myopic.

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    4. Umm...I write on a political blog. Editorial, by nature, is biased. And I NEVER claimed to want or provide an unbiased commentary. I also do not hold a non-partisan position with local government.

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    5. Dave, what happened to "this is the my last post on this thread." Posting as anonymous doesn't count as stopping. "Duh."
      I know, I know you just can't help it and have to respond, defend, clarify and continue to explain your point. You don't seem to care what people think of your views or how they live their lives, so why continue arguing your not caring about it all? Perhaps the Councilman doth protest too much.

      It is sport isn't it? Sheesh. :O) (yeah the emoticons don't soften the comments do they?)

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    6. Sue, the funny thing is, we both have been posting on political blogs for about 2 years... I have exerted as much flexibility to some of your ideas as you have toward mine... I won an election being extraordinarily visible, you? well you didn't chose to run, you just choose to drag the Mayor over the coals, and continue to print completely one sided information... your side. Fair enough, the only reason I come here is to make sure something isn't said on my behalf that I didn't say, or to answer requests that started this whole thing (for me)... what will Dave say about the Mayor on this one. Like it or not, I'm about the only politician bold (or dumb) enough to answer for myself, like it or not. Always have been, always will be.

      Dave

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    7. Dave...yes, you speak for yourself. Thank goodness. It's nice to have crystal clear proof of someone's ability to think/serve the masses. Or lack thereof...

      Seriously...we've told you before...THINK before you speak.

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    8. Sneaky as usual Sue, distorting my own words for your political gain...

      My quote "I'm about the only politician bold (or dumb) enough to answer for myself, like it or not. Always have been, always will be"

      Your response: To state that I admit I don't speak or think for the masses.

      That is a completely twisted version of what I said.

      My meaning was clearly, I'm not the Mayor, I think for myself even though you and your friends called me, I believe, a yes man for Janice Daniels in your printed materials during the election. Pretty sure theres a copy on this blog for anyone that would like to read it.

      I think theres roughly 50,000 registered voters in Troy. Lets say I vote yes to have a new fountain installed on the corner of 17 & Livernois... You and I both know there will be about half the city that loves the idea, and half that hate the idea. Yet I vote yes (or no, you pick how the discussion should look).

      If I vote opposite to how you felt, you'll tell all here that I need to consider all in Troy before considering how to vote... If I vote how you think I should I'll get an atta boy, Daves finally paying attention. In reality, I've still ticked off half the voters, and I have thought through and read up before throwing my support on every project to date, and will continue to do so.

      Again, next election, take a shot at it, run yourself, spend your own cash, and please every last citizen in Troy. I promise you, it's not possible.

      Dave

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    9. Read it again, Dave. That's not what I said at all.

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    10. Everyone KNOWS it's not possible to please everyone; what keep saying is not revolutionary. However, in the past councilpersons have voted in ways I don't agree with at all, but I accepted it because I felt they were doing what they felt was best for the city. I don't see Janice, you or Teitz doing this. You are all self serving and that is what makes people mad. I know that the votes won't always go in the way I would like, but I would at least like to respect the decision process.

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    11. Self serving? I'd like to see which vote I've made seems self serving to you... And why you see it that way. Because I can honestly say, every vote I've made to date i truly feel is in the best interest of a community I have spent close to 50 years in.

      Dave

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  15. Janice has her ideologies and wants smaller government.

    However, she wants to cram the ideologies down the throats of her constituents until they think like her. Unfortunately, she is making them regurgitate.

    Smaller government, yet she gets involved (as the Mayor of Troy) in pushing another program (which is in line with her ideologies) on us. I don't expect anyone to understand her "modus operandi" because you can't. She is a legend in her own mind.

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  16. Boom. Wary and Weary nails it with every word.

    I urge everyone to read this article from a recent Rolling Stone issue describing the terrible number of suicides of gay teens who were bullied without repercussion in the district in Minnesota represented by Michelle Bachmann. If you don't clearly see how dangerous and tragic institutionalized, legitimized intolerance of gay people is after reading it, you simply have no heart or soul.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202

    This is exactly why Janice Daniels remarks about "queers getting married in New York" and her subsequent comments to the kids who went to see her were so damaging. It's exactly why she needs to be recalled and hopefully never allowed to go further in politics. Her sneering words were perfectly summed up by Amy Weber as she made it seem okay to bully and abuse gay people, because, hey, the Mayor of Troy feels the same way.

    Recall Janice Daniels. November can't come soon enough.

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    1. Thank you for sharing the link to the Rolling Stones article. What happened in Minnesota is stunning, shocking and absolutley horriying. And it was all allowed to happen because ignorance and fear. Mayor Daniels must be recalled.

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    2. I wish all the right-wing ideaologues in Troy would read this article, do they really want that to be happening here? Dave professes to have been bullied in middle school, and says he got over it, so others should too. Can he imagine being physically abused, taunted, and persecuted by your contemporaries to the point of committing suicide? What's worse is your community and perhaps your parents share the same view as your bulliers, you have to go to school, what's your way out?

      One can look on the position of Mayor of Troy as staying out of hot social issues, and previous mayors have done that. And yes I get that Janice Daniels said what she said before she was even thinking of running for mayor. But once Mayor, "as a defender and promoter of the community", from the words of the City Charter, that she has also recently quoted on her FB page, she should have made it clear that TOLERANCE and KINDNESS toward others is of prime importance. Surely, by God, everybody can agree on that.
      How could she have made it better? Go to the high school, make an appearance at the LBGT meeting. She didn't have to say anything, just show up and attend.
      What should be sad also for right wing ideaologues is that most kids are confused about sexual identity, it is a confusing time, they're just hitting puberty. It is a time made worse by all this judgemental anti-gay posturing done for all I can see for political gamesmanship. To then I say, stop talking the anti-gay rhetoric, and stick to the economy, OK?

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    3. Anon 2:22. I am not unsympathetic to suicidal people. How do you know the extent of the abuse I took, and to what degree of self doubt I was taken or how near or far I was from doing that to myself. You have no idea how many funerals I've attended in the last 5 years of suicide victims, or the amount of time I've taken embracing family members who have been heavily affected by suicide to the point that I fear they feel that is an acceptable way out.

      I'm all for focusing on something other than this, but some people feel like they need to keep dragging the Mayor back into it, and others as well. I've been hounded by people pushing causes for my statement on this particular topic. I'm not sticking my face in that fan because I feel the same way you do... Troy politicians should focus on Troy. However, that does not mean that politicians that choose to involve themselves in other causes don't have the right to do so.

      Dave

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    4. We don't keep dragging the Mayor back into it, she does. Listen to her comments on the Charlie Langton Show, just for one example. She has the right to be involved in other causes, but not as the representative (Mayor) of Troy.

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  17. This is directed mostly towards Councilman Henderson, but I am also speaking generally.One thing that is important to remember is that regardless of whether or not Janice Daniels was Mayor when she made her bigoted comments about homosexuals, her comment was intended to disparage an entire group of people. As someone who represents the city or is attempting to become one who represents the city, she has made the entire gay and lesbian community feel unwelcome in Troy by her comments. She offered an apology that was not even lukewarm or the slightest bit genuine. What has she done to reach out to the gay community for her hateful remarks? As Mayor, she is supposed to be the one extending the olive branch and making people feel welcome in the community. Rather than disparage those who are of the homosexual persuasion, maybe she should try to understand them. She has also alienated the business community over the transit center. Has she attempted to reach out to the business community at all? She wasnt elected to represent the Tea Party of Troy. She was elected to represent the People of Troy. If she is serious about being a good mayor, she has an awful lot of reaching out to do if she makes it through the recall. As elected officials you are supposed to be the caretakers and cheerleaders for your community, not its grim reaper. All of her wounds are self inflicted. And dont forget all of the nasty public commenting she engaged in prior to becoming mayor. Perhaps these are things you should keep in mind before you leap to defend her.

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    1. anon 5:30 please keep in mind, I also "alienated the business community" with my transit center views. That is a weak claim at best. Keep in mind the Troy Chamber represents less than 5% of Troy businesses. And I know for certain not everyone that owns a membership to the Troy Chamber was in favor of this train station. So in fact we have likely "alienated" less than 5% of the business community for standing up against a wasteful project. Those are pretty good statistics IMHO. Now before anyone gets all crazy about this... keep in mind, I am 100% behind this project now that its essentially on the books... this thing needs to perform as sold to us or we are hosed.

      Dave

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    2. Dave,

      When you say that the "Chamber represents less than 5% of Troy businesses", how did you derive that figure? Could we please see the data behind this statement? Is the 5% based on total business entities? Because if so, it's a very misleading statistic, because most businesses are very small entities that really don't do a lot of "business". You see, counting Flagstar Bank as "1 business" which is equivalent to Joe's Plumbing or Susie's Pasties is disingenuous at best. Plus, many "business entities" registered with the state are actually owned by other business entities. A business owner might join the chamber under the parent companies name, but not necessarily all the subsidiaries.

      A more accurate picture would be to look at either the revenues of Troy businesses represented by the Chamber in comparison with total revenue of a Troy businesses. That way, you could see the actual representative power of the Chamber. Or you could look at the number of employees based in Troy for Chamber vs. non-Chamber companies.

      The Chamber represents Flagstar Bank, PNC Bank, Bank of America, AT&T, Kelly Services, Beaumont, Meritor, Dickinson Wright, Delphi, etc. These are big companies with big revenues and a lot of employees. So, please, stop with this nonsense of saying that the "Chamber represents les than 5% of Troy businesses." It's a meaningless statistic.

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    3. Only 11% of Troy residents voted for Dave Henderson. So therefore, he doesn't really represent the people of Troy.

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  18. "Heck I believe the earth is about 9,000 years old... some believe its millions of years old. Lets argue about that for thousands of years as if it really makes a difference.I figure I'll find out in less than about 20 years if all goes right... or maybe I won't."
    --Councilman Dave Henderson

    I'm sorry, I just can't let that one go without pointing out the sheer idiocy of that comment/belief.

    Dave, this is why people with an ounce of education can't take anything you or people who believe things like this, seriously. Really? 9,000 years old? Have you ever been to any western state where the layers of rock are exposed? Or even down I-75 beyond Ohio? There about 100 million years of earth's visible history in plain sight everywhere the freeway cuts through the hillsides. Those layers are a record of a planet billions of years old. Dude. go back to school. Learn something. I recommend Faber...

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    1. "Dude. go back to school. Learn something" Holy crappoly. You cant see this was a sarcastic comment about the age of the earth? Duh.

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    2. Bull. Ever hear of the Creation Museum in Kentucky? Plenty of people believe this, as evidenced by the startling attendance numbers. There are a lot of people without a clue out there. Don't try to walk it back, Dave. You said it. Own it.

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    3. Thanks anon 7:37. The original point being, you can't compare text from the bible and science and make any sort of logical determination (note the abortion and global warming comments above as well). Faith vs. science rarely align. So who's right the scientists or religion? But points are often missed by people that are simply bent on making someone look stupid for their own (political) gain.

      Dave

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    4. Anon @ 8/3/12 7:37,

      I don't know if your comment was sarcastic or not, but I thought I'd pass this on if it wasn't. I once attended a Pentecostal service where they tried to "prove" the Earth was only 6,000 years old. It was the most rediculous thing I had ever listened to. There's another organization in Kentucky that tries to do the same thing. Look up the Creation Museum...they'll tell you that the Earth is 6000 years old, that men and dinosaurs peacefully coexisted, and that Noah brought the dinosaurs on the ark. I don't think Dave Henderson was being sarcastic about this and that is scarey.

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    5. Um...there are people who take the bible literally and actually believe this. Some of them live in Troy. Based on some other comments it is not unreasonable to believe CM Henderson might actually believe this. So...duh yourself.

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    6. Given that the context of Dave's comment being at the end of an earnest paragraph in which he says he has gay friends and has gone to gay weddings, I can't see any sarcasm in the earth's age part. Maybe it would help if Dave were to let us know when sarcasm is intended right when a statement is made?

      I really don't care how old Dave thinks the earth is, what is important to me is that he is apparently blind as to Daniels's effect on this city's reputation. I have encountered many instances of other Michiganders knowing of her and not in a good way ("oh, you're from Troy, that crazy mayor"). He can at least keep his 2 cents out of it, be quiet and neutral(publicly that is), let people decide for themselves as is THEIR RIGHT in November. Actually, aforesaid behavior would be more befitting of a sitting council member than his participating in this forum, though it has been informative in knowing how Dave thinks.

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    7. Dave:

      The Bible is not based on logic, it is matter of faith. Science is logical conjecture based on the best available testable evidence. Whether you think one is "right" is a personal choice, but keep religion in the houses of worship, and out of government and SCIENCE class in public schools.

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    8. Seriously, young earth is a theory. I'm not a theologian. All I can say is if you take the 7 day theory as literal, 6,000 years makes sense, if you think Gods meaning of a day isn't literally 24 hours, who knows. I've beaten this dead horse enough. There is not enough scientific evidence to prove either way with certainty, and a faith based religion is exactly that... faith based. You either believe or you don't. Not one of you has cornered the market in knowing all, and certainly none of us can make the claim that the topic of conversation here is right, a sin, or nature with certainty... thats one of the reasons I follow the edict, "judge not lest ye be judged". Leave that for your God.

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    9. Troy City Councilman Dave Henderson asks, "So who's right the scientists or religion?"

      Well, I'm going to have to go with "the scientists" on just about every issue that is the subject of scientific analysis.

      For example, the Bible tells us that the Earth is stationary and the Sun moves. Science tells us that both the Earth and the Sun are in motion, the Earth revolves around the Sun, and that the Earth rotates about an axis. But science doesn't just "tell" us this. It proves it with evidence. It provides predictions and explanations that are testable.

      But Dave, let me ask you this: When you were diagnosed with cancer last year, what did you do? Did you submit to the scientifically-based medical and surgical treatments? Or did you turn to prayer alone?

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    10. There is absolutely, positively MORE than enough evidence prove with as much certainty as science can muster for ANYTHING, that the earth is older than 6,000 years. The unbiased data to support this is COMPLETELY overwhelming.

      The ONLY evidence for a young earth is the bible and complete disregard for science. Period. Sheesh. (insert emoticon).

      As such, it has no place in government in the United States of America. Anyone who professes to respect our constitution, should also respect the separation of church and state.

      Matt G
      Troy, MI

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  19. Concerned CitizenAugust 3, 2012 at 3:56 PM

    Mr. Henderson,
    After reading all this back and forth I would like to say this;
    Politics, philosophy and religion aside, what the underlying message here is that WORDS ARE HURTFUL.
    Words abuse, they shame, they disrespect and they damage. It is not your beliefs that are the problem, you can think whatever you want. It is your WORDS here that are the problem.

    You have it in your head that just because you feel some way that it is ok to express it and that what others think, or how it affects them is not your responsibility. It isn't about PC, or 1st amendment right or historical perspective... it is that the WORDS are hurtful to people. I am sure that you would not tell your next door neighbor that they are fat. You know that is hurtful even though you might think it. I bet you wouldn't call the African-American firefighter saving your home a N****R. Because that is not acceptable to anyone in today's world, no matter the history. If your wife or daughter were having an epithet hurled at them, you would not sit still.
    Please stop and reflect and consider that your WORDS, intentionally or not, are HURTFUL to people that are gay, parents of gay children, people of other faiths and ethnicities. Yes, you are allowed to say whatever you want to in America. But, should you is the question. You seem to like to tell tales about how you were raised and how you raised your children. Well I bet that if your child from the shopping cart, schoolyard or scout meeting said something hurtful or disrespectful to another child or adult even, you would have either reprimanded or educated them that you can't always say things to people or what is on your mind. There is appropriate and there is inappropriate language.
    How you are posting on this site is inappropriate and is just throwing gas on a very large flame.

    If you are a Christian person, which you seem to be, then you should be concerned about your WORDS as well as your deeds. Whether you wanted to be or not, you like the mayor, have chosen to put yourself in the public realm and you must set a tone and a bar for a modicum of civility, fairness and inclusiveness to ALL Troy citizens.
    Blogs and message boards are mine-fields of ugly. Feel free to express an opinion if you want to. But never, ever pretend that your WORDS don't offend or hurt. They do. I am not saying that others posting here do not. But I just get the sense that you are either purposefully or in the heat of the argument determining, that your freedom of speech gives you a pass to use hurtful language and shrug it off to an attitude of "that's my story, so get over it."
    It does not sir.

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    1. concerned citizen... please cut and paste what it is here that I have printed that isn't repeating something someone else posted that would be hurtful. The only point I am trying to make is it is perfectly ok for someone else to express opinin on a variety of topics. Do I do it? not necessarily. I try to stay out of the fire... I was asked directly above how I would defend the Mayor on the marriage seminar issue... I stated my opinion, and as usual, those things get dragged into trying to pin me down on gay rights. It's a funny thing how all roads lead to that. Again, please repost any of my personal opinions that you feel are offensive or destructive in their full context, and if I've offended, I'll apologize.

      I love our city, and it's diversity. I have never said or done anything that wouldn't be deemed inclusive to all, there are some here that would like to back me into that corner, but they won't. I have opinions that are faith based. Others here have opinions that are not faith based, and some that are a variance... my biggest point in all this... we'll never know the truth til we get to heaven (or name a final resting place, I get tired of being so PC)... I'm a Christian, if you're not thats truly o.k. with me. I don't cram my Christianity down anyones throat, and honestly get tired of people dragging me into these conversations only to pick apart my belief system. I honestly don't care what others think about the way I believe.

      Dave

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  20. I know it's off-topic, but since we've got Councilman Henderson on the line, I've got a question.

    When Dave ran for office, he said there was enough money to fund the library without any millage increase. Does he still think that today? If not, what changed? If he does still think that, why didn't he propose to cut the city millage rate by 0.7 and fund the library for 7 day operation during the budget sessions? I'll hang up and listen.

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  21. "There is not enough scientific evidence to prove either way with certainty, and a faith based religion is exactly that... faith based."

    Faith in what? A book written by ancient men who couldn't possibly conceive the universe as we know it now? Who saw earthquakes and floods and bolts of lightning as divine retributions? A book that has been revised thousands of times over the centuries by other men, with agendas of their own, political or otherwise, that is so diametrically opposed between the old testament and new that they have almost no relationship with each other? Faith in what you're told by people who "just know" that's the way things are? Sorry, good luck with that. Guess we can tell all the scientists making medicines, engineers creating machines and doctors healing the sick that they are wasting their time, too.

    Here's my point. I want people in government making decisions based on sound judgment, facts and data, not "a feeling" or "what God tells me to do." I don't have much "faith" in people who refuse to compromise their "beliefs" with facts just because it's uncomfortable. God didn't say gay people are lesser beings who shouldn't be allowed to marry if they love each other. Some guy said it 2,000 years ago, and since then, a whole bunch of people out there have used that stupid statement, one of many in the bible, by the way, as a rationale to be cruel and hateful to people who don't deserve anything less or more than anyone else.

    Dave, the other point? If you don't condemn bigotry, you make it okay by proxy. When you defend haters, as you have with Daniels, you're just as bad as she is. Bigotry should never, ever be okay. Ever.

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  22. Dear Faber Grad,
    Based on your last post you are as offensive as the Mayor. You presented a simplistic view of Christianity (which i've heard hundreds of times) and by way of your statements implied those that believe are stupid. I have made several posts that have attempted to return the focus of this blog to what I thought it was about - the incompetency of the Mayor. Apparently, your beef with her is that her world view conflicts with yours, which you believe is the correct one. We all have faith; those that believe there is no God have to place their faith in that belief. So be it.
    I did not vote for the Mayor, and I support the recall. I do not question the legitimacy of her faith; but, her faith has nothing to do with her qualifications. I believe in forgiveness; but actions have consequences.
    Mr. Henderson, thank you for standing up for your faith; but, I disagree with you about the Mayor. I would that you read some of the postings that apply to her conduct and capabilities with an open mind.

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  23. I think the beef is with the fact that she should not be interjecting her personal, religious beliefs on a city of many faiths and beliefs. Faber Grad is expressing an opinion, not unlike the opinion of CM Henderson on his faith view which may have offended some non-Christians reading it. These subjects are always quite personal. I know many atheists who are really offended that a prayer is said before City Council meetings.
    How this conversation has gone off the rails is because there is a decided movement to inject religion into our socio-political lives. The reason that this nation is the way it is, is because the founders determined that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and "shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
    Christianity is not the state religion. Our Constitution prohibits that. There is an overriding sense in the nation today that there are those that would like to see that happen. You can not be a defender of the Constitution and think that it is ok to do this. The founders were not all Christians, some were avowed deists. They were trying to avoid what happened in England from happening here. So, they did not want a theocratic government and were trying to protect against that.
    Let's get back to the conversation, which is, that the Mayor of this City, and CM Henderson if is the case, should not and can not promote faith initiatives under the guise of government to the citizens of Troy.

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  24. Anonymous 8:09: You're absolutely right. Calling bible quotations in general, stupid, was wrong of me. I shouldn't have used that word, or conferred, directly, stupidity on the part of people who take these texts on faith. My deepest apologies.

    The point I am trying to make is this: I strongly object to so-called Christians (those who I assume follow Christ's teachings) using their faith and the bible as a cover for small-minded hatred or prejudice towards others. Jesus never once shunned another person of any kind. He took in a prostitute, went among lepers, forgave those who betrayed him. And he preached that love for each other was above all things. Nowhere did he say, "except for that man or woman who loves another man or woman." Only in the old testament do you find vengeful attitudes on the part of God, which of course was written by mortal, infinitely fallible men.

    As the son of a acholar of theology and a lifelong Catholic who has spent much of that lifetime trying to sort out the my religion's wheat from the chaff, I have had to critically examine many its dogmas and doctrines. Like many, I find religion wanting in many areas. Given that most of the families in my church aren't made up of two parents and seventeen kids, I'd have to say, most of my fellow parishioners are choosy about which rules they follow, too.

    Sorry for taking so long to respond. I'm sure this will in no way be satisfactory to you, but I heard you and feel bad for my poor choice of words.

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  25. Actually, I greatly appreciate you taking time to post this. My perspective is far from yours in many ways; but, very close in others. There's a great Rick Warren quote that speaks to the fact that we can have firm beliefs on certain issues but shouldn't lose our ability to be compassionate. What bothers me most is what I see as a lack of compassion on the part of the Mayor and her inner circle. You are probably more of a biblical scholar than I, but from my readings and the teachings I have received your observation regarding Jesus' ministry is accurate. You make another great point that I agree with; I too find "religion" lacking in many ways. You can be religious and adhere to the rules of a religion without practicing its underlying principals.
    Troy is a great community. We have many diverse places of worship and, I'm sure, many non-believers who up until this current mayor interacted with no friction ( to my knowledge). The Mayor failed to recognize this and is turning people against each other.
    Again, thank you for yourvwell stated response.
    The Conservative Christian

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